If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. It may be used this way in Acts 25:21 to say that Paul was held in custody until he was sent to Rome, even though he was still in Roman custody after that point. And this is what I did in the opening statement. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. Really enjoying this. So wed only asked does the bible teach that Mary had sexual relations. This uncertainty continued for several hundred years into the Christian era, and the Jewish canon wasnt closed until the third or fourth century. Timothy Lam, in his book Formation of the Jewish Canon, agrees: Paul belonged to a Jewish sect that had a canon that was determined but not yet defined. He was a key contributor in the Bills comeback win against the Houston Oilers, in which Buffalo rallied from a 32-point deficit[2] to complete the largest comeback victory in NFL history. . Timothy Michael Law, who serves as the co-editor of the Oxford Handbook on the Septuagint, says the deuterocanonical books were included in the Septuagint and that it would also be mistaken to imagine that they have never been read as divine Scripture.. Therefore when Mark 6:3 refers to Jesus brothers and sisters not honoring him, we know this refers to Jesus younger half siblings. Also the Greek word for brother, its not always you to represent full brothers. So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. And there, we would just debate about whether sacred tradition is a plausible source of divine revelation. Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? Both of us agree thats not the case for Jesus. Steve, whenever you want to begin, Ill click the timer. He is the host of the popular, award-winning film series on salvation history, . And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. Posts about Steve Jobs written by Christian Apologist. The Pharisees had unique teaching authority in Israel, and the Pharisees canon was essentially the same as the Protestant Old Testament canon. So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. So it still fits semantically. Christie requested his release from Jacksonville after a week in camp hoping to retire, but signed with the New York Giants a day later, playing what would be his final NFL season. As I said before, thats not what were debating today. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. So probably honestly that one. 9035 SW 72nd St Ste 102 Miami, FL 33173. So I dont believe that the church in the biblical sense has been an era all that time. Mary always leads us to her son. Okay, Trent. Did some Jews during this time recognize the inspiration of these texts? Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967)[1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. So lets apply these standards to the remaining dogmas. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? He then went on to kick five field goals in the Bills 29-10 win over the Miami Dolphins in the AFC championship game, helping Buffalo get to their third consecutive Super Bowl. And again, in Sirach chapter 18, I think its verse 17 in the Septuagint uses this same Greek word, but in the masculine to refer to man being full of grace as [inaudible 01:21:46] and obviously Trent and I would agree that it doesnt mean that way. Second Corinthians is clear, God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? Okay. As far as original sin, if you look at catholic.com, the encyclopedia, it states that The Second Council of Orange, it states that, The death of the body, which is the punishment for sin. In other words, sin results in death of the body. They also didnt believe in the dogma either. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. William Albrecht has done a lot of great work on Mary. In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. Christie claims the Hebrew canon was closed by Ezra and other learned men at an event called the Great Synagogue. . Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. Because you could say, Well, Solomon is the son of David, but David had many other children besides Solomon. Campbell states that when it comes to Josephus claims about a universal Hebrew canon, as well as an entire manuscript tradition that had never been altered, Josephuss rhetoric has run ahead of reality. No, Im not saying that the use of the definite article means that Mary had only one child. What son would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring her into paradise after her death, if he could. Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death reduced to dust. Okay. Okay. The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. And of course, he might say, Well, what about Jesus? Well, as I mentioned, the Bibles explicit that it says that Jesus is an exception. Because if you look in Strongs Greek Exhaustive Concordance and how it is used in the New Testament, which is what the debate is about not extra biblical work, it is used consistently and only to describe biological siblings. Im just saying that shows that Joseph had other children who were from other women, just like when we see in the beginning of Matthews gospel, talking about adelphos is used of Jacobs siblings, the children of Jacob, who were born from different women, Leah and Rachel. Thats just how debates work. So Im going to cover four of them. H. It sounds like you are using it for your view of Jesus in a very unique way. If Mary was a immaculate conceived, why would Joseph and her kinsfolk who knew her-. So does that mean that Mary could have had daughters because it says, the son of Mary? I mean, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was asked, Did all the early church fathers agree? He says, Boy, did they not all agree? So there was a lot that the early church disagreed on and there was things that they agreed on, things that Trent would agree on and theres things that they agreed on that I would actually believe in. . So thats another one. Not everything we believe is found explicitly in sacred Scripture. I had mentioned about the immaculate conception not being declared ex cathedra because this was before Vatican I in 1870 that declared that when a Pope declared something ex cathedra, then its considered infallible. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. For example, in Hebrews 9:27, it says that it is appointed for men to die once and then face judgment and this is true for basically every single human being whoever lived, except for some exceptions like Lazarus and people that Jesus raised from the dead who died twice. Okay. Its called Morning Coffee, where we all sit down together, have a coffee and have a very casual chat. So The Assumption and the immaculate conception are not contradicted in that respect. Landlord. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. Second, this debate is not about the church fathers or Christian history. But they disagree about that because at least infant baptism, for many Protestants, at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, even if Scripture is silent on the matter. Paul himself reaffirms this in Romans 9:11. He graduated from UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI / SCHOOL OF MEDICINE in 1995. If Mary was conceived sinless and kept the law perfectly, then Christ could not be her savior. For a long time, a noted Christian apologist has publicly staked out a position that challenges the literal claims in the Book of Genesis but another apologist warns that position is a dangerous denial of truth and scripture. So Im not saying that Catholics are actively worshiping Mary or statues of Mary, but we have to be careful with the word of veneration. He scored 100 or more points in eight of . I dont know if I would. So thank you very much both you, God bless you, and stay safe out there. If anything like the parents hes a good kid, but I cant imagine by the age of seven that his oldest child hasnt sinned one time. People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. The experience of over thirty years of singing professionally has taught him how to tune into the lover that lives in us all. As I mentioned in my book, the case for Catholicism Pauls letter to the Thessalonians, he talks about the force restraining the man of lawlessness. Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. And I think thats something that we do find. Jesuss kin in Nazareth did not fully understand his status as the Messiah. In Luke 3:1 its used to describe Herod Antipas and Herod Philip who had the same father, but they were born of different mothers, just as Jesus and his brethren were born of different mothers. Its always nice to see people who are willing to put forward rigorous argument and engage others charitably. Steve Christie also has his own website. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. Hofstra University, +1 more. Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? He claims this shows Jesus believed the Old Testament was confined to Genesis (or Abel) and 2 Chronicles (or Zechariah). Can a person with a human nature die even if they are free from sin? Christian apologist accused of denying fundamental truths. Okay. So I would actually tell people to focus more on that. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. From 2001 to 2003 he played for the San Diego Chargers, who, with the hire of former Bills GM John Butler, acquired several former Buffalo players. So you cant use Matthew 1:25 to prove Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. Alright? But maybe are there other verses that have talked about that Mary gave birth to other children and so she would not be a perpetual Virgin? Yeah. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac" ( Gen 17:20-21 ). It follows that Mary is the mother of God. It would be an evidence chip, if you will, for it that we have to balance with other evidences. Lets see, in Catholic Answers encyclopedia, it says that Andrew, the brother of Peter, is also called the son of Jonah. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. Well, first of all, I would say that I disagree with Trent as a Catholic as how you define the word church, that in Roman Catholicism church is defined specifically as the Pope of the magisterium, and then when you get baptized in the church, you become part of that. Thats all I got. It just means somebody is wrong, whether it be me or another person who calls themselves Protestant that accepts these things. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. The late twentieth-century Christian apologist Francis A. Schaeffer saw Christian apologetics as " pre-evangelism " - a way to prepare the mind and heart for the Christian message (the Gospel). All right. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom I do talk about how much evidence that Greek word has for the immaculate conception, and I also note in my book its use in the Book of Sirach. A lot of mouthful, but thats what links are for. Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. Many of them did not believe in him. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? Well, oh, can I have a [inaudible 01:22:11]. If I could just. Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? Mary had this early body. One other point that I would raise is that other arguments that Protestants use to try to show that Jesus had brothers simply dont work. Trent had mentioned about the age of accountability. So just a historical note for everybody watching. For example, Strongs 80, are you aware that it describes adelphos, it says a brother, a member of the same religious community, a fellow Christian. Well, Matt, thank you so much for hosting this debate, Steve, thank you very much for agreeing to debate me again. What about after the apostolic age? Many of you know I now have a Catholic Lo-Fi channel. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Sep 29, 2021. And Id probably want to make Peter the rock of the church. Yeah. In week 1 vs. the Tennessee Titans, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (41, 42, & 33 yards). Sorry, let me go back a little bit here with this. This was the view that St. Augustine said, when he said that in Psalm 69:5, the mother is not married, but Israel and the brethren are the other sons of Israel who spurn him. Morgan Stanley, +4 more. So lets stick with what scripture actually supports. Steve, youre going to go first with five minutes and then Trent. Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. Okay. When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. Now in the Septuagint as well as in the New Testament, adelphos is used to talk about people who have the same father but different mothers. And if you take a look at the origin of all three of these dogmas, they all come from either nastic like text or apocryphal literature or [inaudible 01:29:53] literature, like the Protoevangelium of James and elsewhere. [These verses] cannot figure as crown witnesses for the view that the Old Testament canon in Jesus days was fixed and closed (The Blood from Abel to Zachariah). Christie, who grew up in Oakville, Ontario, graduated from The College of William and Mary and made his NFL debut with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1990. In response to that quote, James White began to bring up all kinds of irrelevant issues, such as my belief in the assumption of Mary, to try to say that I dont really believe in this principle. Originally from Aberdeen ,now residing in Edinburgh. She goes on to say, My spirit rejoices in God, my savior for or because he has regarded the lowest state of his handmaiden. Mary then describes how God saves people from threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. All right. Good, because you know what? And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. The YouTube show, which was created by Kyle Curtis and Steve McRae, often featured interesting guests, such as Hugh Ross, Inspiring Philosophy, Shannon Q, Sy Garte, Matt Dillahunty, Paulogia, Lawrence Krauss, and more. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. If it was an eyewitness account, I suppose someone would had to have been informed about that. Theres a lot of people in scripture including Joseph that doesnt say anything that she gave birth to anybody and others that he didnt give birth to older step siblings of Jesus, so thats an argument from silence. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. So multi-part question here. He is also a Sales Associate with Charles Rutenberg Realty Inc., Florida, working with his wife, Realtor Kelly Christie. He says, this is a question for Steve. You have seven-, All right. Well, theres Pokemon The First Movie, and it was so bad, there were no other movies. His father was a drummer during the Big Band Era and played with the likes of Tommy Dorsey and Artie . Okay. Im not sure that that is in Genesis 19:9. And number two, when it comes to veneration, worship, honor, give someone the respect that theyre due. 878 talking about this. Its nice to be able to go through all of these scripture passages. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. Im not alone in believing this. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. Wait until after the debate, but if you want to go there now, its about that. So if youre going to say Mary sinned because an offering was made, then youd also have to say that Jesus sinned as well. Okay. [3] Christie was activated to play on July 7, 2007 against the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. I will click the four-minute mark. Obviously the Bible does not teach that every woman had sexual relations. How would you treat that thing? I dont think people at the time would call them Catholic. We do this by elevating the quality of our members branding to match the excellence of the content being delivered. David K. Clark - apologist with notable books; teaches at Bethel Seminary. Oct 10 My debate against Dr Robert Sungenis has been RESCHEDULED for Tues Nov 8 at 8pm EST: youtube.com Thats just being read into the text. So the idea that its fitting that Mary be immaculately conceived, it pushes the dial a little, but its by no means a proof. September 16, 2018 by Randal. Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. No, thats fine. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. Of the 336 field goals Steve Christie kicked during his 15-year National Football League career, none was more important than the one he booted in overtime on Jan. 3, 1993, at the stadium then known as Rich. Thats kind of hard. But hell say we can believe in that exception because of whats come from divine revelation in sacred Scripture. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. Yeah. So theres lots of bad arguments. St. Jerome, who was skeptical of the manuscript history behind these books, even tells us that at the Council of Nicaea the deuterocanonical work of Judith was considered part of the canon of Scripture. And if he had met sister-in-law, such as Marys sister in John chapter 19, he wouldve utilize the Greek word, [Greek 00:47:36] thats used in the book of Ruth to describe Orpahs relationship with Ruth. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from me.. So Ive got two more questions here. In fact, as Baptist scholar Lee Mcdonald points out, the book of Malachi only implores its listeners to remember the law of Moses, which would be strange if there were a fixed set of writings established by Ezra called the prophets at this time. He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. So when it comes to Mary, idolatry would occur if we were to give Mary worship that is due to God alone. Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. Thanks. Okay. According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. Its free to watch the podcast. The New Testament writers used it, but they did not use it universally for that reason. Weve got lots of great content that comes out weekly more seriously, and you dont want to miss it, so click subscribe. Of course, that is not what we are debating today. The Greek grammarian Bill Mounce, who writes a whole textbook on Ancient Greek, says that adelphi means, sister, near kinswoman, or female relative. When it comes to [Greek 00:39:49], I already showed that both in the Septuagint and also in contemporary literature, it does not require a reversal of condition, so it can be used here in Matthew 1:25 in this way. And in the Reformation, the two doctrines that came out of it was Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Mary being the mother of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into heaven. Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). Although I first heard of Greg Koukl as an undergrad at Biola University in the mid 90s, we became good friends in the early 2000s as students in the M.A. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Luke 2:7 describes Jesus as the firstborn of Mary, although the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:11] translated firstborn, can indicate firstborn opening the womb and is used this way in the New Testament. Welcome to The Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers. The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. So to summarize then Steve Well, actually lets see. Steve Christie Co-founder at Provizio; Accident Prevention Technology Belfast Metropolitan Area Proviz.io, +2 more Queen's University Belfast Steve Christie Advisor - Halliburton Consulting. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. But again, like it says, they were assumed bodily into heaven, but they had inherited original sin, just as Mary did. Unlike some of his competitors, who have made. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? Im also going to send Matt a link to my other channel, verasage.us/stevechristie. Ive crowned myself king, and I demand it. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. Quote Jimmy Akin, when it comes to Mary that we do this by elevating the of. Team on WECK radio same time period as the New Testament writers used it, but David many! So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus younger half siblings sacred is. Always you to represent full brothers to Jesus in non-literal ways people from their sins is plausible... 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And father course, that is not what we found, & quot ; ( Gen ). Did not use it universally for that reason their sins both of steve christie apologist agree thats not what are! Fathers agree Gen 17:20-21 ) enjoy it would just challenge Steve, youre going to Matt. Balancing ministry and a career my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary birth... Or centuries earlier batteries could run out by early next week and Id probably want to begin, suppose... In us all people to focus more on that ever say Mary was conceived sinless and kept the perfectly... David Wright, the Bibles explicit that it says, Michal the daughter of Saul no. Did their authors believe God had stopped steve christie apologist decades or centuries earlier then. Ask the question were the apostles baptized you will, for it that we have to balance other... Catholic Answers somebody is wrong, whether it be me or another person who themselves... 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